Early blind retrieves.

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newfowler

Early blind retrieves.

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Posts: 10

( 7 April, 2008 08:55:07)

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Hi My 14 month lab is coming along nicely with marked and trailing memory retrieves over some quite long distances and through various cover, he goes striaght back as fast a whippet.

I have recently been introducing him to short blinds and this is where my trouble has stared. I give him the back command and he just looks at me, after encouragement he moves forward and then veers to the left or right, nowhere near in a straight line. I have useed fence lines for the same excercises and he goes back no problem, when I movwe him to the centre of a field and try again same problem. any ides to move forward, I have even tried dropping the dummy a mere 10 yrds away and then sending him, but again he moves off side ways and sents the dummy picks it and comes back.

Any techniques for building a line?

Berettaxt

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Posts: 80

( 7 April, 2008 17:02:40)

Hi i take it when you say the back command you have the dog sitting in front of you and trying to push it back. try this first if you can get a friend to help you. get you friend to stand say 30 to 40 yrds away at first with three dummies get your dog at your heel and when ready get your friend to give a shout and throw an easy straight mark so the dog can easily see it, when the dog returns do the exactly the same again, when the dog is running back this time get you friend to throw the dummie to the exact spot where the two previus dummies landed making sure the dog didnt see the dummie get thrown in, now when the dog returns with the second dummie get it back in to heel and send it back for the third dummie if it shows reluctance to go, get your friend to shout or clap his or her hands, gradually increas the distance over time as he get more confidince with blinds, also try it with two dummies instead of three ,do it in an openfield with short grass ie a football pitch or a public park.
Ally

Eugene Molloy

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Posts: 377

( 8 April, 2008 07:13:20)

Just to add a bit to the above post; use some dummies that the dog can easily see from the get go. That way he will take a straight line to his objective.

I use white plastic ones on short grass as a starting point.

eug

jowebbdog

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Posts: 16

(14 May, 2008 14:15:52)

I have a springer and, like you, she is great with marked retrieves and doing really well with memory retrieves (which I sometimes intersperse with hunting and other lessons, before sending to make more difficult!).

However, I was teaching the "back & fetch" command (dog facing away from retrieve) and "on & fetch" command (dog facing the retrieve) by initially walking the line with the dog at heel, placing the dummy, heeling away and then sending the dog for the retrieve with the appropriate command...NOT a problem. As soon as I moved on to trying a "blind"...even by dropping the dummy in the same line...only SOMETIMES would she understand what I meant...more often than not she would show the same behaviour that your lab is now showing...i.e. she didn't know what I was asking of her. So I asked for some help and the following is the piece of advice that I had...which makes a lot of sense to me...its about building the dog's trust initially. Hope it helps you too. I don't know what "distances" you will require - I've an ESS, so probably closer than the requirements of a lab for, say, picking up...but the principle will still be the same, I'm sure:

"There are various methods, but teaching blinds is all about getting the dog to 100% trust that there will be a dummy whenever you send him.

When first starting blind retrieves a useful technique is to set up a 'permanent blind' This is a location that the dog is used to retrieving from, somewhere distinctive that it is hard to 'overshoot'. The foot of a large tree on a hedgerow for example, or the corner of a field.

Spend a few days getting your dog used to retrieving 'go-backs' from there. That is to say, heel the dog to your permanent blind location, drop a dummy in full view, and heel the dog away. Send the dog from 10 then 20 then 30, 40, 50 yards (build up over several sessions) and from several different directions.

When he is used to retrieving marks from this place, you can hide a dummy there when he isn't looking. So although this is a blind retrieve (he didn't see it fall) he is so used to finding a dummy there that he goes anyway. Start from very short distances again and build up to 50 yards. Then do the whole thing in another location. He'll catch on much quicker this time. The next location even quicker, and so on.

When he has learnt several PBs you can add a distraction dummy before sending him to the PB. When he is good at this, you can start little short true blinds, fairly obvious ones to begin with, more hidden ones later on.

Whatever method you use, the thing is to keep him confident that there will be a dummy there waiting for him".

Molly99

blind retrieves

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Posts: 1906

(15 May, 2008 12:53:45)

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TheONeile

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Posts: 32

(16 May, 2008 06:54:56)

As a non retrieving breed specialist who just happens to have trained a few "fetching" dogs I am slightly confused by the title of this thread condidering the first sentence.To whit.

"Early Blind Retrieves" & "Hi My 14 month lab".

Last Edited By: TheONeile 16 May, 2008 16:00:23. Edited 1 times.

crackerd

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Posts: 646

(16 May, 2008 09:18:47)

Uh, maybe "Hi, my 14-week-old Lab..." might've resonated more, Des? My 14-week-old Lab is running 150-yard blinds that aren't true ("cold") blinds but as Eug noted, capitalize on a pup's propensity to go get something "markedly" visible at a distance. That same propensity will evolve into straight lines (pinpoint lines) over time and training.

Which leads into my question of why there seems a reluctance (adamantly so?) to follow a "programme" in the UK for a pup in building to blind retrieves. I start three-handed casting at 10 weeks and puppy "play" blinds (dropping a dummy with the pup alongside then heeling away 15-20 yards) about the same time. Does anybody over there formalize the training from the outset (regardless the age of the pup at the outset)? Jeff, Matt--am I sussing it wide in asking?

MG

TheONeile

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Posts: 33

(16 May, 2008 16:15:34)

D

Last Edited By: TheONeile 16 May, 2008 16:21:30. Edited 6 times.

TheONeile

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Posts: 34

(16 May, 2008 16:22:36)

19:11:05
Stewart Hall Shoot Day.
Tam: - Very frustrating day. Tam is now hunting better than ever (but still not great) and he is a lot more focused on his work. You would have thought with all the birds on the ground and the distance we covered that I might have been able to execute a flush/shot/retrieve but as I might have expected the opportunity fell to Mister.
The best I could do was to drop Mister's bird, unseen, fire a shot and send Tam. He picked it up dropping it once but importantly he presented it well and even held on to it till I told him to let it go. We're building this Castle a brick at a bloody time.

This is a post I made some time ago. The dog in question is Tam who was born 27th January of the same year so he completed his first blind retrieve, of game, at the age of nine months three weeks, approx. In fact this might have been his first real retrieve, period.
Perfecting any evolution is all about practice but the salient point is that the earlier you start the easier, and therefore the quicker it will be achieved. Just persevere and it will come good eventually. Consistency is key.

MattA99

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Posts: 893

(29 May, 2008 13:20:31)

MG

Which leads into my question of why there seems a reluctance (adamantly so?) to follow a "programme" in the UK for a pup in building to blind retrieves. I start three-handed casting at 10 weeks and puppy "play" blinds (dropping a dummy with the pup alongside then heeling away 15-20 yards) about the same time. Does anybody over there formalize the training from the outset (regardless the age of the pup at the outset)? Jeff, Matt--am I sussing it wide in asking?

Sorry - missed that question. I dont think that there is a particular reluctance to follow a "programme", rather that (to my knowledge) no UK based trainers/writers have published one. I'd guess most successful UK trainers would follow their own "method" and I would expect that if they took the trouble to write it down it would end up looking like a programme.

Some of our earlier writers would have dismissed the idea as creating 'remote control sheep dogs', but I dont see any reason why a programme geared towards UK requirements couldn't be successfully employed.

Matt

ackalack

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Posts: 58

(21 July, 2008 18:07:36)

MG,
you touched on something that I have been thinking about lately. As you are aware over here there are more drills for training marking and blind concepts than you can throw a stick at, but I don't hear of base ball or wagon wheels etc, on the UK forums. I'm sure the same concepts are trained, is it that the UK drills have different names?

warren

Jegy Z

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Posts: 2553

(22 July, 2008 06:33:20)

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Warren,

It is much as Matt says, we do follow a 'programme' but it is dictated to a certain extent by the dog. Because of our requirements the early training is very much geared toward steadiness and obedience with just sufficient retrieving to keep the dog keen and progressive but not get it over excited. We also have our 'drills' but they are usually termed something like, training exercises, and are relatively few. UK training tends to be quite fluid, most training sessions would incorporate steadiness and obedience exercises as well as retrieving specifics. Also throughout the training it is important for us to maintain the dog's own initiative, as they are often expected to work out of sight of the handler, as well as establishing control.

Jeff

crackerd

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Posts: 681

(22 July, 2008 15:49:23)

I'm deferring to Jeff and Matt, Ack, but am amused by the "different names" positing for drills--actually it's the same names that amuse, as in "walking baseball," which recently was alluded to on the Pigeon Shooting Forum that Jeff frequents (as do I). The chap who introduced it is apparently a Canadian who after doing so now has to go to lengths in telling what exactly baseball is before he can explicate the drill. (And there's no longer a Baseball Ground at Derby to use as helpful reference.)

Hey, maybe we can have a cousinly reciprocation with "walking cricket" for teaching remote blinds--like you sit the dog at silly mid-off and...

MG

elitegundogs

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Posts: 277

( 1 August, 2008 15:40:11)

newfowler
I think i see more than one mistake being made. MOST of the time when a dog takes off left or right from the line it is because the handler sent the dog that way by moving their hand when giving the back command. #1 when you put your hand down, DO NOT block the dogs view, this will make it impossible for the dog to go strait. #2 only put the hand down AFTER the dog locks in, the hand does not direct the dog to lock on, it only tells the dog that it is correct when it locks on. #3 When you send the dog keep the hand perfectly still, a big ole sweeping motion will always be in an arc sending the dog to one side or the other.

Now, before introducing the dog to "walking baseball" you need to do some 3HC (three hand casting) starting with using the "fetch" or the dogs "go" command and only switching to the "back" command after the dog has the basic idea. When doing 3HC always start out with an extra bumper in your hand, and toss that bumper to the pile of bumpers to "mark" it prior to sending the dog.
Remember that at this stage of the game you are teaching, not testing.

tom

Last Edited By: elitegundogs 1 August, 2008 15:44:20. Edited 1 times.

Blackfen

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