Electric Collar

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crackerd		#21	[-]
Posts: 605 (25 February, 2008 14:08:15) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Eric, you simply have no idea who valuable (benignly devious?) that your spiel on origins is to me in an upcoming naming. Jeff, who(m) I also solicited and who I'm glad responded, only solidifies this fun little fooferaw (n., believed Irish). A bit of cryptic insight here. As the US Cavalry would have it on the frontier "Charge!" MG PS Jeff, the dog didn't slip the whistle, it slipped the collar. Last Edited By: crackerd 25 February, 2008 14:10:17. Edited 1 times.
Jegy Z		#22	[-]
Posts: 2480 (25 February, 2008 14:22:35) Administrator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Eric, the Scottish team were saving themselves for their next game against England! At least we're guaranteed a British winner Jeff BTW, Since when was nicking telegraph poles a sport Last Edited By: Jegy Z 25 February, 2008 14:25:11. Edited 2 times.
Eric Begbie		#23	[-]
Posts: 1604 (25 February, 2008 15:34:59) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This "nicking" thing really riles the Anglos. For MG I should explain that the English make a big thing out of the fact that, in the 350 years up until the end of the 16th century, the Border Reivers used to cross the border from Scotland into England and steal sheep. What the history books often fail to explain adequately is that the Reivers actually crossed into England looking for women. It was only when they saw the English women that they opted for the sheep!! (Hope Pippa doesn't read this). Last Edited By: Eric Begbie 25 February, 2008 15:40:33. Edited 1 times.
crackerd		#24	[-]
Posts: 606 (25 February, 2008 16:49:01) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	For the love of Vera Lynn, Eric, how you dare you impugn the English rose? As for nick or nicks, do you think Jeff's refusal to use them in favor of scruffing could ever see him serving at Her Majesty's pleasure? (I hear Winson Green has a very good rabbit pen.) Or maybe he's an assizes-only sort of chap. MG
MattA99		#25	[-]
Posts: 876 (25 February, 2008 17:59:20) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	MG, With regard to the dog that you have linked to: FTCh Shortthorn Tommy - fairly pale yellow, bred in Norfolk, England owned and run by Billy steel Snr a very successful Scottish trainer. He qualified two or three times for the Retriever championships. I saw him at the 1999 retriever champs. He went out in the first round - he didn't seem to fancy the bramble covering in the woodland floor very much! Tommy sired Billy Steel's FTCh #$+*# Rockingstone Hope of Leadburn. FTCh Dargdaffin Dynamo - Bred in Scotland but was resident in Norfolk. Won something like six Open stakes. A hard hunting yellow dog that looked a bit of a handful. 0/0 hip score - got quite a lot of stud work, but not much from the trialling community. Also sired FTCh Basswood Delia of Barsky. FTCh Tasco Broom-Tip of Carnochway - bred in Northern Ireland from predominantly English breeding. Owned and run by a Scot. Raughlin is a reasonably well known Irish kennel. FTCh Baildonian Baron of Craighorn. A black, bred (I think) in England, run by Tom Smith (a Scot). Sired by an Irish bred dog (Gillmhor Arrow), that was owned in England. Came close to winning the 1997 championships, slipping up right at the end. Has some rumoured reputation for producing some offspring with a bit of noise, but has sired a few UK & Irish FTChs. He got sold to a guy in England who had him a stud for a while before selling on again to the US. FTCh Theoweir Turramurra Teal. Another yellow - Irish bred, and trialled. A big reputatation as a really powerful, stylish hunter. Winner of the Irish championships. He seems to add a bit of additional risk of eye failure and was a PRA carrier, but he's in the breeding of some very good trialling (and producing) dogs. English / Scottish / Welsh borders are meaningless from a UK Labrador perspective. The top triallers compete and buy throughout the mainland. There are some Irish lines that could be considered a bit of an outcross, although not usually much further back than three - five generations. Matt
Jegy Z		#26	[-]
Posts: 2481 (25 February, 2008 18:09:18) Administrator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi Matt, Never one to disappoint, great background info. Hope you are well. Jeff
WAB3	dog	#27	[-]
Posts: 682 (25 February, 2008 21:48:33) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Matt, Any information on a dog named Shangarillyn Jess? I don't know how to get information on the UK dogs. She was imported from Ireland around 2000 or 2001 I believe? Bill
tonypup.familydog		#28	[-]
Posts: 5 (25 February, 2008 22:09:30) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You guys over here in the US had better watch out. There is a serious challenge coming up on owning or using an E-collar. It is coming from pet dog trainers. If I read the board forum right they are already illegal in Australia along with prong collars. This is my take on e-collars. They are a great training tool just not in my hands, I have Scott-Irish roots. It would be to easy to go from 20-100% shock factor in a heart beat. That is the reason I have searched for the no-force type training and watch this board. The thing I have seen as the big reason for use of the E-collar over here is what I see as 9 months to QAA or wash. It gives trainers an easier way to train a lot of dogs or money. Time is the big reason.
MattA99		#29	[-]
Posts: 877 (25 February, 2008 23:20:25) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Cheers Jeff. I'm fine thanks. Interestingly a lot of the 'British' labradors in the US actually come from Ireland. Bill, I'm not familiar with Shangarrilyn Jess - what was/is her breeeding?(I dont suppose she was the yellow #+%@! that was sold at the CLA game fair a few years back?) Irish Kennel club litters and field trial results are not published by the Kennel Club, so I dont get to see much detail from Ireland. You could try her breeder..... http://www.gundogfinder.com/hosted/?id=29 Matt
crackerd		#30	[-]
Posts: 607 (25 February, 2008 23:54:59) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Matt, likewise grateful for the detailed info on and insights into this pedigree. Tony, interesting observation but no evidence whatsoever to support it. Especially the QAA bit--where in the world does that come from? I got a Q ribbon with a dog the day after she turned 13 months, it was my choice to run a young dog, all the others in the trial were more than twice her age and most were 4-5 years old and owner-handled. In my experience pros hardly run Qs at all, it's either derby or the open stakes. But if you're implying it's incumbent on them to get a QAA b i t c h for breeding, well, that's off the mark as well. Making money off the e-collar is maybe something your Scots-Irish roots cause you to read too much into. As to the pet dog trainers' or owners challenge to e-collar use, maybe you mean PETA's challenge? (PETA to many of us stands for People Eating Tasty Animals.) Anyhow, never happen, either way. Like the old saying from these colonies, "You'll take my guns when you pry them from my cold dead fingers," insert e-collars for what "they" are trying to take away. Not to pick on any money-centric worldview, Tony, got Scots-Irish roots of my own (not quite as rooted as that star Scotsman Dario Franchitti)--but if you want to talk about money and an eye toward making it, why not bring this thread back to its originator and his "descendants" and the mass marketing of (sorry, Eric) British Labs. But hey, it's a capitalistic society and they're entitled (if not titled), eh? MG Last Edited By: crackerd 26 February, 2008 00:43:00. Edited 2 times.
tonypup.familydog		#31	[-]
Posts: 6 (26 February, 2008 02:30:21) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	MG, Getting started and finding a akc club to train with was a must. So I found a semi-local club . Their was three pro's and the rest of us. I got to spend time being the bird boy and general gopher while they tought me how they made money training labs that they bought off kennels and were sent to train. I saw some really nice dogs get the boot, they were sold to hunt test. (now they have taken that over to.)They kept the better ones to run at Q's. OH so true about the big name Pro's not running the Q,s. The labs, ones that passed, went for 4-5 thousand, the ones that did not pass 2-3 thousand. It was a good learning expreince watching the machine called feild trailers work. I got to meet the real pro's that bought these dogs. Names I not going to mention, but they live up north and move to florida or texas every year. True some trainers don't work under this sceniro, but some time when your there watching what goes on. Ask question how these guys make the money, do they have the time to spend on every dog they get sent to train. The top man has a nice pyraimd under him. He may only touch the labs 2-3 weeks before a FT and only the ones the his senior trainers say will pass. What is the fastest way to have a turn over and count on the product being the same is a nice program and it does include e-collars. The Cotton Pershall method takes to long for these guys. He was a great trainer. As to peta being behind this no it is apdt. As far as british labs in the states, Most of them are not used in FT's Only American made that I have seen. Hunt test both AKC and UKC have some, they make better Gun Dogs.
ackalack		#32	[-]
Posts: 41 (26 February, 2008 12:02:30) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tony, I found your post very interesting. I had to look up APDT. I have absolutley no idea of your own personal views on this but would ask; Why would an association of pet dog trainers bring a challenge to the use of e collars by the common man. It sounds like their ranks may have been infiltrated by the same facsists that make up groups like PETA and HUNT SABS. I could have this wrong but groups that try to inpose their views on others really get under my skin. Particularly when they use the welfare of animals as an excuse for their own ignorance. Cotton Pershall, I gotta get him down on my reading list. warren PS. Sorry if I'm ranting off topic.
Eric Begbie		#33	[-]
Posts: 1605 (26 February, 2008 13:30:11) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	ackalack wrote: Tony, I found your post very interesting. I had to look up APDT. I have absolutley no idea of your own personal views on this but would ask; Why would an association of pet dog trainers bring a challenge to the use of e collars by the common man. It sounds like their ranks may have been infiltrated by the same facsists that make up groups like PETA and HUNT SABS. I could have this wrong but groups that try to inpose their views on others really get under my skin. Particularly when they use the welfare of animals as an excuse for their own ignorance. Cotton Pershall, I gotta get him down on my reading list. warren PS. Sorry if I'm ranting off topic. Have to agree with that approach. It just has to be better (on loads of issues, not just e-collars) to persuade people not to do something/use something rather than to ban them. Bans are the weapon of the intellectually bankrupt.
tonypup.familydog		#34	[-]
Posts: 7 (26 February, 2008 21:01:14) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It is the approach of how they have evolved in to thinking on how one should train a pet. Purely positive no adversity's. Some of them have gone as far as saying a flat collar and lead are to much. Some go into hand feeding and watering. That the dog is better trained that way as a pet. I can see that in a prefect world, but it is not. What is strange on there thinking is an electric fence is all right to use. It is a good organization and I am a member, but with this coming up not for long. I was hoping that there were guys on here from the land down under that could speak out about the ruling on E-collars down there.
Teamspurandwhip		#35	[-]
Posts: 56 (29 February, 2008 15:34:58) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If I collar can't be used while a dog's in the water for fear of that dog becoming sour on water work, that dog was very poorly trained with a collar. If an advanced dog I've trained know to stop on my whistle, turn in the water and wait my directional cast and the dog understands that trained skill will be enforced [at a level of pressure dictated to me by the dog in question] why on earth would a dog get a "sour" attitude in the water any more then it would get a 'sour" attitude on land if the collar was use to enforce a command there? It doesn't make sense. Way too many trainers in America work on teaching their dog what they don't want it to do rather then teach it what. Creating "hot spots" on unwanted water exits is just one example. If a trainer can't use a collar in the water successfully [enforce command while maintaining a good attitude] it hasn't been trained very well IMO. Remember, many successful dogs aren't trained very well IMO. The problem isn't the collar....saying so is just a typical "feel good" fix. The issue is getting everyone to use the collar in a skilled fashion. The problem with that is few people will ever train enough dog to use one optimally. But a solid understanding of caollar can be learned by anyone willing enough to learn how to use on properly. As I stated on this forum years ago,pressure isn't the enemy of training. Pressure that not understood by the dog [burning it at random in another room for example] or is over zealously or applied is the enemy. I will shortly be posting my 'research' paper on the internet that proves that guns when used improperly [and that's the only light I see them used in] are damaging. I plan to post it on the Brady gun control site. Nothing like preaching to the choir when you PROFIT from gun control.. I'm looking forward to regretting this.
rpg51		#36	[-]
Posts: 1 (13 April, 2008 21:40:35) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This is my first post. I recently purchased an e collar. It took me a long time to make the decision - I am a long time confirmed believer in the power of positive reinforcement. But the bottom line is this - the e collar is an extremely powerful training tool. It can easily be misused. On the other hand, if you see the collar as nothing more than a long leash and you use low level stimulation - all that is needed - or tones - often sufficient - it is terrific, simply terrific. Like most powerful tools, including guns, the key is the mindset and knowledge of the operator.
Windem Bang		#37	[-]
Posts: 238 (14 April, 2008 08:30:02) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi RPG , as a new convert to occasional collar use myself, I agree with you, used sensibly and with thought, the E- collar is a boon to dog training. It is the education in its use that is lacking. I know videos etc. exist on this subject but the entire subject is pretty much taboo in this country. Education is difficult where repression exists. Bill T.
Jimmy E White		#38	[-]
Posts: 12 (14 April, 2008 21:48:54) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	As an American who has settled in UK and been active in shooting and gundog circles over here for the past 10 years, perhaps I can possibly offer a more educated comparison than most. From close contact, much discussion and a lot of observation of gundog work both at home in US and here in UK I can vouch for what has been said already on this forum. The compelling reason why British gundog owners are determined not to allow the e-collar to become a "normal" part of gundog training in this country is not what Windem calls "repression" but is because, firstly, it is unnecessary given the unique levels of "trainability and bidability" that have been bred into the major retriever and spaniel breeds in UK and, secondly, that the extended use of such techniques in Britain would ultimately and inevitably lead to the gundog scene being dominated by inferior strains of dogs that required the use of negative training methods. Believe me when I categorically state that the average Labrador Retriever in UK is far superior to the average Labrador Retriever in USA in terms of its natural instincts, drive and trainability. I am not saying that the performance of the top American dogs is inferior to their British counterparts in Tests and Trials. But for the shooting/hunting man who is buying a puppy to train himself for a hunting companion, the British strains are miles ahead in every respect. The extensive use of the e-collar or force fetching would ruin that and wash generations of hard work and careful breeding down the Swannee. When JegyZ stated earlier that "good trainers don't need to use e-collars and bad trainers should not use them", he should have qualified that by saying "for British strains of gundogs". Unfortunately in America the situation has deteriorated beyond redemption.
crackerd		#39	[-]
Posts: 628 (14 April, 2008 22:59:16) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Frankly, ain't seen such a load of codswallop here since...wait, has Freddie Starr ever posted on gundogs or just his discourse on denying eating a hamster? Cesspool that it can be, even the Suwannee can't come close to accommodating such sewerage... "Unique levels of 'trainability and bidability'" means sit, here, heel and by the way go out and pick a bird, or can you elaborate with more, er, compelling testimony? MG
Eric Begbie		#40	[-]
Posts: 1646 (15 April, 2008 11:13:55) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Jeepers Creepers! I no sooner "lock" one e-collar thread than someone drags out an even older one. I'm beginning to understand why the Romans enjoyed spectating at gladiatorial combat events in the Coliseum.

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